From Stigma to Strength: Embracing the Beauty and Resilience of Women’s Biology – Robin Atkins

Show Notes

If you’re frustrated and discouraged by the constant struggle to understand and appreciate the unique biology of women, as evidenced by unsuccessful attempts to find practical solutions or gain a deeper understanding, then you are not alone! Many individuals find themselves stuck in a cycle of confusion and misunderstanding despite their best efforts to educate themselves and engage in meaningful discussions. Instead of the desired result of recognizing and appreciating women’s biology, they may find themselves perpetuating stereotypes and perpetuating harmful biases without even realizing it.

“We’re doing a disservice to motherhood by either glamorizing it as everything’s beautiful and easy or by only talking about the hard parts. We should focus on the beautiful parts and the magic of seeing the world through a child’s eyes.” – Robin Atkins

My special guest is Robin Atkins

Say hello to Robin Atkins, a remarkable licensed mental health counselor from Indiana. Robin’s unique perspective on the niche area of reproductive mental health enlightens those tackling complex psychological challenges related to fertility, making her an expert in her field. Drawing from her personal experiences and a life-long curiosity about human psychology, Robin’s therapeutic guidance offers the much-needed mental health support that remains largely unaddressed in our society.

This is Robin Atkins’s story:

Robin Atkins was never a stranger to the psychological world. As a child, she immersed herself in Freud’s writings, a hint of the course her life would later take. A twist of fate led her down the rabbit hole of reproductive mental health, an area still relatively unexplored. After witnessing the lack of mental health support during her high-risk pregnancy and in the throes of a personal loss, Robin felt an undeniable pull to turn the tide. She threw herself into learning, research, and tirelessly lobbying for better support systems, only to meet with repeated obstacles. Unfazed, she channeled her energy into private practice and educated herself further about infertility. It was during this journey, that Robin realized the profound beauty and complexity of women’s biology, a topic until then, shrouded in misunderstanding and misinformation.

In this episode, you will be able to:

  • Uncover the critical role mental health support plays throughout the perinatal period.
  • Delve into the harmonious dance between the struggles and delights of motherhood.
  • Appreciate the intricate marvel of women’s unique biological makeup.
  • Revisit the abortion discourse to investigate solutions addressing the crisis’s heart.
  • Learn of vulnerability’s compelling force in forging understanding and instigating change.

Gender Dysphoria and Mental Health


Gender dysphoria, the psychological distress experienced when one’s gender identity doesn’t match their biological sex, is a severe mental health issue. It’s crucial to establish that surgical interventions and politicization won’t necessarily resolve the struggle these individuals experience. Instead, fostering understanding relationships could be more beneficial to their mental well-being. In the podcast, Robin Atkins underscores the significance of empathy when dealing with individuals struggling with gender dysphoria. She acknowledges their pain and echoes the belief that the solution doesn’t lie within surgical interventions or politicization. Robin advocates for treating mental health issues through understanding and healthy relationships, emphasizing that empathy is the fundamental pillar in dealing with such delicate matters.

Vulnerability and Conflict Resolution


Vulnerability can spark potent connections and facilitate meaningful dialogue. Being open about one’s fears or discomforts can prompt understanding which can aid in conflict resolution. This perceived weakness can break down walls and establish authentic, genuine connections. The balance is processing personal traumas before embarking on provocative discussions online to prevent triggering adverse responses.

Both Robin Atkins and host Johnny Sanders strongly advocate for the power of vulnerability in breaching societal taboos. Robin insists on individuals needing to deal with their traumas before intense online discussions to safeguard against triggering adverse reactions. She recognizes vulnerability as a transformative agent for effecting impactful change and encourages the same for others. The conversation underscores the necessity of authenticity and openness, even when facing criticism or disapproval. This honesty could be the key to unlocking doors toward meaningful discussions and eventual societal change.

Celebrating Women’s Biology


It’s not just about understanding women’s biology; we should also celebrate it. Women’s bodies are designed to carry out miraculous tasks like bearing children and nurturing them. Not to mention their remarkable resilience and capacity for recovery after childbirth. Recognizing these natural differences between genders is crucial to a more inclusive and equitable society.

According to Robin, appreciating and celebrating women’s biology goes hand in hand with respecting and honoring their unique capabilities. Robin firmly states that women and men aren’t interchangeable entities and that a person’s gender identity doesn’t alter biological realities. Her assertiveness is a resounding reminder to see the value and magnificence in women’s biology which is a testament to nature’s excellent work.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

  • Follow Robin Atkins on Twitter – You can find Robin on Twitter and continue to engage with her and learn more about reproductive mental health.
  • Explore Robin’s website – Visit Robin’s website to learn more about her work as a licensed mental health counselor specializing in reproductive mental health. You can find information about her services, resources, and contact information.
  • Seek counseling for reproductive mental health issues. If you or someone you know is experiencing traumatic events related to reproduction, such as infertility, pregnancy loss, or postpartum issues, consider seeking counseling from a reproductive mental health specialist like Robin Atkins. Contact Robin for more information on how she can help.
  • Support the certification program in reproductive mental health – If you are a therapist or mental health professional, consider enrolling in Robin Atkins’ certification program in reproductive mental health. This program offers 25 credit hours and covers various aspects of reproductive mental health. It is a valuable opportunity to gain specialized knowledge and skills in this field.
  • Explore the reproductive mental health textbook – If you are a student or interested in reproductive mental health, consider exploring the reproductive mental health textbook published in 2021. This textbook provides comprehensive information and can be a valuable resource for learning about this specialized field.

Timestamped summary of this episode:


00:00:09 – Introduction,
The host introduces the guest, Robin Atkins, a licensed mental health counselor specializing in reproductive mental health. They discuss how they connected on Twitter and the importance of mental health in the reproductive journey.

00:01:26 – Journey into Counseling,
Robin shares her lifelong interest in counseling and understanding human behavior. She initially wanted to be an FBI profiler but later pursued counseling. She discovered her specialty in reproductive mental health after experiencing a high-risk pregnancy and a pregnancy loss.

00:07:16 – Reproductive Mental Health,
Robin explains the scarcity of specialists in reproductive mental health and the need for more awareness and support. She shares her experience with clients dealing with pregnancy losses, traumatic births, post-abortion struggles, and infertility.

00:10:24 – Lack of Support in Hospitals,
The conversation turns to the lack of support for reproductive mental health in hospitals. Robin shares her experience of not finding the needed therapy during her NICU stay. They discuss the importance of providing mental health resources to new parents.

00:12:19 – Impact on Relationships,
Robin emphasizes the importance of considering how growing a family affects relationships. She discusses the lack of preparation for the relational aspects of parenthood and the need for better support and education in Western culture.

00:15:08 – The Reality of Motherhood,
The speaker discusses the challenges of motherhood, including the lack of sleep and the difficult choices between eating or showering. She emphasizes the negative conversations among mothers and the potential impact on birth mothers who choose adoption due to societal pressure.

00:16:19 – The Magic of Parenthood,
Despite the challenges, the speaker highlights the magical moments of parenthood. She describes the joy of seeing the world through a child’s eyes, their curiosity, and innocence. The speaker emphasizes the importance of embracing both the rugged and beautiful parts of parenting.

00:17:33 – Bonding During COVID,
The speaker shares her experience bonding with her family during the COVID-19 pandemic. They started homeschooling and developed a strong unity and enjoyment of each other’s company. She values the unique connection they have as a family and believes it can’t be replaced.

00:18:10 – Parenthood Humbling Experiences,
The guest reflects on the humbling experiences of becoming a father. He shares a personal story about watching a video on shaking baby syndrome and realizing the challenges of sleepless nights with a newborn. He emphasizes the immeasurable joy of being told “I love you” by his children.

00:21:26 – Relationship with Children,
The speaker challenges the expectation for children always to behave perfectly. She believes building a genuine relationship requires inconvenience and accepts that children, like adults, can have bad days or attitudes. She suggests reevaluating our parenting expectations.

00:29:17 – Balancing Time and Attention for Children,
The speaker discusses the challenge of balancing full-time work, homeschooling, and spending quality time with each child. They explain their system of dedicating 4 hours per month to each child individually, allowing them to feel heard and valued.

00:30:11 – Prioritizing Needs in a Growing Family,
The speaker reflects on the upcoming arrival of a new baby and the need to ensure that each child’s needs are met. They emphasize the importance of finding ways to support and tend to everyone’s needs, even with the demands of a crying baby.

00:31:53 – Appreciating Women’s Biology,
The speaker highlights the unique biology of women, particularly the pituitary gland’s alert signal in response to their own baby’s cry. They express the importance of recognizing and appreciating the biological differences between men and women, as well as the role of the mother’s biology in the survival and development of a child.

00:34:41 – Celebrating Women’s Biology,
The speaker discusses the importance of celebrating women’s biology, including their ability to have children. They express their appreciation for the differences between men and women and reject the idea that gender is simply an identity, emphasizing the biological realities that shape our experiences.

00:37:40 – Women’s Bodies and the Abortion Debate,
The speaker shares their personal experience with abortion and its impact on their perception of their own body. They argue against the idea that abortion is a

00:45:24 – Gender Dysphoria and Mental Health,
The guest expresses empathy for individuals with gender dysphoria but cautions against the politicization of the issue. She believes that mental health issues cannot be cured with surgery and emphasizes the importance of treating them with relationship-based therapy.

00:46:50 – Breaking Down the Differences,
The guest discusses the controversy surrounding transgender individuals’ use of gender-specific spaces. She believes that offering separate areas for transgender individuals would be more inclusive than trying to eliminate the distinction between male and female.

00:47:21 – Connections between Gender Issues, Abortion, and Transhumanism,
The guest highlights her belief that the movements surrounding gender issues and abortion are interconnected and rooted in the desire to transcend biology. She also discusses her views on birth control and its potential psychological repercussions.

00:48:54 – Addressing Abortion Trauma,
The guest opens up about her trauma related to abortion and shares her experiences supporting other women who have faced similar situations. She emphasizes the importance of understanding and care regardless of the choices made.

00:53:16 – Vulnerability and Conflict Resolution,
The guest emphasizes the power of vulnerability in resolving conflicts and fostering understanding. She encourages individuals to approach difficult conversations with empathy and a desire to understand the other person’s perspective.

Transcript

00:00:09 – Johnny Sanders

Well, welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Faithfully Engaged. I have a guest here that I met on the wide world of Twitter. We get all sorts of good interactions, and I’m sure we’ll get into some bad interactions, but thank fully. This has been a fun person to get to know a little bit on Twitter. So Robin, let me shoot it to you a little bit, and why don’t you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

00:00:36 – Robin Atkins
Well, thank you so much for having me, Johnny. I appreciate it. Yeah, we met on Twitter. My name is Robin Atkins. I’m a licensed mental health counselor in Indiana, and I specialize in reproductive mental health. So I see people with any type of traumatic event related to reproduction, which could be everything from infertility to pregnancy loss and everything in between.

00:00:57 – Johnny Sanders
Great. And let me just start right there. I’ve had a few other counselors on the show before, and this is a question I like to ask offline too, but what’s your, why what got you into counseling in the first place?

00:01:14 – Robin Atkins
Counseling itself, is not my specialty, but counseling I knew at a very young age, I was reading Freud by age twelve, so it was just kind of destined to be and twelve year old stuff, right? Normal twelve-year-old stuff. Funny story, I have two siblings and we all have psychology degrees, so we joke that there must have been something wrong with our family, and we all wanted to figure it out. We all went into different parts of psychology, so I’m the only therapist. The other two are working in other areas of psychology. But yeah, it was just from a very young age, that I wanted to understand the human brain and human behavior, and so that was just a natural direction that I went into. I wasn’t sure I originally wanted to be an FBI profiler. Then I decided I did want a family, and that wasn’t probably the safest or most conducive job to have children while doing. So it kind of shifted on its own somewhere in my twenty s. And then my specialty didn’t start till my thirty s, and it found me. I didn’t even know reproductive mental health was an option, and it’s still very rare to find a specialist in it.

00:02:23 – Johnny Sanders
Yeah, tell us a little bit about that. And I’ll be honest that I can understand a little bit of living through having two kiddos. And my wife is at the time of recording. This is eight months pregnant, so we’re about to have another kiddo out into the world. So I see that side of her going through that. And obviously, there are issues both with kind of ups and downs of pregnancy and then I would imagine, too, of the ups and downs of infertility and all sorts of different issues. But all that being said, as a professional myself, I don’t know a whole lot about that. And that’s part of what was so intriguing to me. It seems like such a wide chasm that mental health isn’t touching very much. So, yeah. Tell me a little bit about your journey, getting into that as a specialty, and what you’ve learned. Yeah, just go into more detail about that.

00:03:22 – Robin Atkins
Yeah. So it started somewhere around 2010. My pregnancy with my oldest living son was extremely high risk. I was very sick. I was on bed rest for about eight months, and then my water broke early and we had to rush to an emergency c section. He was in the NICU for a month. And while I was in the NICU, I was asking for a therapist, and their response was, well, we can bring you a social worker. And no disrespect to social workers, they’re amazing, but it’s not what I was looking for. As far as the social workers at the I know some social workers do therapy, and that’s fantastic, but the social workers at this particular hospital did more community resourcing, and I didn’t need community resourcing. I needed somebody to help me process everything that had just happened to me and the new world that I was in because NICU is just its biodome, so they said, we can’t do that. You’re going to have to leave to find a therapist outside of here. And I had a two-year-old at home and a premium in the NICU, so I was spending 08:00 A.m. To 08:00 P.m. At home and 08:00 P.m. To 08:00 A.m. At the hospital, and I wasn’t about to take time out to go do some self-care in the midst of that. So it didn’t happen. And so at that point, I just knew I’ve got to do something about this. So for the next several years, I banged my head against several walls trying to get perinatal, hospice, and palliative care into our hospital systems here. And I live in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and here in Fort Wayne, we’ve had two major hospital systems for a long time. We have a third now coming, but we’ve had two main ones. And so I’ve met with everybody at every possible part of the hospital you can think of related to pregnancy, birth, postpartum NICU, all the admin management, and the end line was always, we don’t want to pay for it because it doesn’t pay us back. So at that time and still now as a therapist, it’s hard to bill while in the hospital. Every time I go see a patient in the hospital, I either do it pro bono or I have to get approval way ahead of time from the insurance company for every single visit. So to do that is cross prohibitive for a hospital to hire a therapist to be on staff. And so it just wasn’t going to happen that way. Then I had a loss, a pregnancy loss, miscarriage after that, and I decided I couldn’t continue at that time I was working with the Department of Children’s Services doing home-based therapy with a lot of kiddos facing sexual abuse. And I started having kind of secondary PTSD symptoms related to that. I have a sexual abuse history from my childhood. And that wasn’t the issue when I started having my kids. It was the stuff I was hearing started to show up in nightmares about my kids, and I just couldn’t continue on that path. So I decided to do private practice. And at that time, I didn’t know reproductive mental health was on the horizon at all. I had not found anything anywhere else about it. I had studied perinatal, hospice, and palliative care for years, mostly in Europe and Australia. I didn’t go there. I wish I had. If anyone wants to fund that trip, I’m open to that. But I just did a lot of reading on the research and the educational materials coming out of Europe and Australia. So I opened up my private practice thinking I was only going to handle the issues that I had had personal experience with and I had not experienced infertility, other than several doctors had told me because of some issues I have, I would never have children. So when I got married thought I was never going to have biological children. But it didn’t feel like since I was so young when they told me that I was 1516 when they started telling me that at that age, I didn’t care. And so it didn’t feel like a big trauma to me, or a little trauma. I just kind of assumed we would figure it out. And my husband knew I couldn’t, so we just kind of figured we’d figure out the kid thing, whether it be fostering or whatever we were going to do. And so we didn’t expect me to get pregnant. So I can’t say I had infertility, so I didn’t think I was going to touch it. But as soon as people in my community here started hearing there were reproductive mental health specialists, not only was I getting a lot of referrals for pregnancy losses and traumatic birth, traumatic pregnancy, post-abortion, women that are at risk for abortion choices, I was getting a lot of referrals for all of that. But then people started calling me about infertility. And really, I have to credit my patients with that. I’ve been doing the specialty for eight years now, and they have been so generous with their vulnerability and their openness and their growth. We all learn in grad school kind of the same techniques based on what theory of counseling we’re doing, but they showed me the knowledge I needed to have to meet them where they were without them having to give me a bunch of backstory and medical terminology. They taught me all that the first couple in fertility clients. So I just finished writing a certification program in reproductive mental health, and it’s 25 credit hours, and it covers all the different gamut of everything except for addiction during pregnancy. That would be its own 24 five-hour course, and I haven’t wanted to touch that yet. I just finished writing this one, so maybe that’s coming in the future. But I know of about 2025 other people in the entire United States specializing in reproductive therapy. There are reproductive psychiatrists because there are a few universities that offer a doctorate in reproductive psychiatry. So that’s more of a medication management of postpartum depression, anxiety, and psychosis. And I do the therapy end of all those things, but I’m not a prescriber, so there’s a lot of money in pharmacology. So the schools are starting there, and maybe it’ll dwindle into there was a reproductive mental health textbook published in 2021, and it was the first one for colleges to have a course on it. And it’s wonderful. It’s fantastic. It’s called the reproductive mental health textbook. So that’s for people still going through school. My certification course is for people who have already finished their degrees and are either getting licensed or already licensed and want a certification in it.

00:09:55 – Johnny Sanders
I think it’s great that there’s at least some direction there. Again, I have been fascinated when I kind of saw you on Twitter and everything was solved. Reproductive mental health, what on Earth? And it just makes so much sense when you explain it like that. Now I feel more like, what have we been doing? We’ve been missing a huge chunk. And I loved what you said there, too, even just on the hospital side of things. Unfortunately, and I won’t get too much into this on my side of things, hospitals, there is just a bottom line that kind of goes in there. It’s not always about patient care. I know in my wife’s kind of postpartum care, particularly our first daughter or our first child that was born, she would have benefited so greatly from what you were desperately trying to find there, of just somebody coming in and just talking. It’s not like I didn’t try to talk to her, but I’m a counselor, but I’m not my wife’s counselor. She needed kind of an impartial party to come in there, and being able to talk with her. My daughter had jaundice. We had to stay an extra day. It wasn’t anything major. She didn’t even get any prescriptions. But she would have benefited from that first time mom having a tough time. Nurses could see that what a great asset that would be to have for all of these mothers if they need that in the hospital.

00:11:44 – Robin Atkins
About just as a society, we don’t talk about death well or birth well. They’re like the two topics that I see most often in my office, births and deaths. That’s what I see most often. And we don’t talk about either one well. And so it wasn’t even till my husband and my third living child. I’ve had six pregnancies in total. I have four living children that we kind of realized, you know, maybe before we add another one, we should try to figure out some ways this is going to impact our marriage and our relationship with our other kids and their relationships with each other and their relationships with the new baby. And that was never anything that was ever taught to either one of us when you are going to grow your family, you need to figure out how that impacts the relationships. People think about the money and what they need to buy for the baby and childcare if they are working. But we don’t think about relationally how that’s going to impact us. So even just that alone, I think most first-time parents, I can honestly say when they handed me my daughter and they were like, you get to leave tomorrow, I was like, Where’s the manual? I don’t understand why you’re letting me leave with a living human being when I’ve never done this before. So it’s just kind of bizarre to me that in our Western culture it’s just kind of like another day and you go back to work in a week.

00:13:05 – Johnny Sanders
Yeah, no, I think that you’re spot on and just even anecdotally and I’m sure most listeners that have more than one kid can relate to this. I know in my life when my son was born, yeah, it was exciting. It was nerve-wracking to a degree, but by and large, we had done that. We’d been there, done that, came home, and life did continue a little bit more normal because we had done that, but we were so much more comfortable on that second round. That first go-round. No, every parent, I think, is like, what on earth? What am I supposed to do here? And yeah, that is a disservice to our society to not talk about what is birth like, what are some of the issues that you might come into, but what are some of the great things you might come into? I know that’s something that my wife has been trying to do with other mothers and things now that we’re on our third kid. So often the talk with mothers is, oh well, just wait till they’re two, just wait until they don’t sleep or this next thing. And so is so negative. Have you seen that both in your life with just kind of people talking to you about being a mother, dealing with kids, and also with your clients, just an overall negative view towards parenthood and specifically motherhood?

00:14:37 – Robin Atkins
That’s a great question. Congratulations, by the way, on your thank you. Pending third birth. Yeah, I think most of my patients who come see me, don’t necessarily negatively talk about motherhood, but they have one of two reactions. They will say all the commercials we see, all the advertising we see very much paints motherhood as easy and blissful. So, like every diaper ad in the world, everybody’s smiling and everybody’s happy. That’s not what a new mom looks like. We haven’t showered in weeks. Like, come on. So I think they’re irritated that they didn’t know the reality of going into how hard it was going to be to go without sleep and not sure, are you going to eat or shower? You have to choose one or the other, all those things. But overall, the actual conversation between them and their friends tends to be negative. The complaining side, the wine mom complaining about the kid’s side of motherhood. And it’s interesting because I work with a lot of birth mothers or first mothers who’ve their children have been adopted out and they have told me that a large part of why they felt they couldn’t parent is kind of the talk about how children interrupt lifestyle or interrupt career or goals. And so they didn’t feel suited to mothering and then it ended up being a huge trauma for them. So I think that’s a disservice. We’re doing as well with either glamorizing it as everything’s beautiful and everything’s easy and light and fun, or as we talk about it with each other, only the hard parts of it rather than the beautiful parts of it. And I don’t know about anybody else, but my experience with my children, there are hard days. Today. I must have spilled three things on myself just in a couple of hours, moving them around and carrying my drink with me. But overall, it’s magical seeing the world through a child’s eyes again, because it’s like when you were a kid, you can see the same kind of magic of like, everything was simple, everything was innocent, everything was curiosity and not fear-based like so many oftentimes adults are anxiety or fear-based. And there wasn’t that. It was just like this big wild world of I want to know all the things and tell me all the things and why is this happening and why is this guy blue and why is Garos green? Why do we name things blue and green? And why are colors colored? All of the deep existential conversations we have right at bedtime so they don’t have to go to bed. I’m sure most parents can relate to that too. But yeah, it’s magical. And I’m at the point now where I have my kids are six to 15, and COVID was horrible. Overall, the reaction to COVID was horrible. But we bonded as a family, and that’s when we started homeschooling. And now we enjoy each other’s company so much that every morning we start together, and every evening we’re kind of all hanging out in my room. My husband’s there, too, and we’re talking about whatever latest homeschool thing we’re doing or whatever science thing everybody’s interested in or whatever social studies thing, and then we all kind of go to bed. But it’s just a really beautiful unity amongst us now, and you can’t replace that elsewhere.

00:18:01 – Johnny Sanders
Absolutely. That’s something that on both ends of the spectrum there that I have been humbled being a father. I remember when my daughter was she wasn’t born yet. We just got into the hospital. My wife was induced, and we had to watch all these hospital videos. And one of them, it was called, like, Purple Baby, something like that. And essentially it was a don’t shake your baby type of video. And I think it was a purple scream, maybe. Anyways, it was essentially saying that a baby is so upset that it turn purple and you’re upset, so then you’re likely to shake the baby. And I remember watching it. Of course, I’ve heard of shaking baby Syndrome, and I wasn’t naive to the fact that being a parent could be hard, but I was like, of course, I’m not going to shake my baby. I don’t need to watch this. And I was humbled in the fact not that I shook my baby later, but my daughter was she was an awful sleeper, just really bad when she was little. And I remember there was a time, and I’ll kind of bring my faith in here, too, that I even prayed about it, of like, God, thank you for one, giving that video to me and for humbling me in this fact. I didn’t ever have a desire to shake my baby, but I understood it. In those moments when you sleep, like an hour and this baby’s screaming, you try every technique to get her to go to sleep. It’s like, I get it now. That’s still wrong. Absolutely. You shouldn’t shake your baby. But that did give us some skills. That was like, hey, put the baby in the crib. Go walk away. They’re not going to die in the next five minutes if you just walk away. And that was on that more realistic negative view that I understood. Yeah, there are really hard moments, but like you’re saying, on the great moments now, my daughter is she’s almost four, and she runs up and hugs me, says, I love you, Daddy. You can’t replicate that. I don’t care how much money you throw at me. I wouldn’t take any of that over being told I love you from my kids. And like, you’re saying that balance there, you need to have both of those, that it can be tough, but man, can it be wonderful. And yeah, I think overall, our culture doesn’t do a great job on either of those.

00:20:38 – Robin Atkins
Well, when you think about it, it’s relationship and marriage has really beautiful parts and tough parts. Best friendships, really, really tough parts and beautiful parts. And I don’t know why we look at children as if they’re supposed to somehow be better behaved than adults, but we do look at them as like, you’re supposed to always behave and do what I say and obey me and never be an issue when we allow other adults to inconvenience us. So that whole kind of philosophy shifted my parenting about ten years ago when I realized, like, why am I expecting my kids to behave better than I expect the adults in my life? I expect the adults in my life to have bad days or bad attitudes every once in a while or whatever meltdowns adults have. And I’m looking at my kids going, you’re not allowed to inconvenience me. No, I want you to inconvenience me. That’s what a relationship is, is an inconvenience. It’s inconvenient for intimacy. And I would much rather have that than go through life never being inconvenienced, but never having a true relationship. And something you had said earlier, I just made a connection. So I have no scientific backing for this, no research. It may be out there, I haven’t even looked at it. But I was thinking when you were talking about having your first child and how the anxieties you have about what could go wrong. And we tend to helicopter parent the first kid. And the second kid, we’re a little more relaxed and laid back. And by the fourth kid, we’re like, oh, sorry, no baby book. This didn’t happen. But I’m thinking about birth order and the types of personalities we see in birth order, and it seems to me that those must be connected. As far as my first child is not very I mean, she has some anxiety, but she’s very I want to know the boundaries, I want to know the balance, I want to know what’s safe. And my second child is a wild, free spirit, hold on, knees before God, praying, just holding on with that kid. And he’s fantastic, but wow, he’s going to be a leader. And then my third child is his own little person and plays well independently and just loves to cuddle on his terms, but he’s just happy little guy. And then my youngest is a drama queen, and they’re all very different. But when I think about where we were at in those pregnancies or in the parenting of them, like our youngest being the drama queen, she was so prayed for and so won. And not that all of them weren’t, but we were doing a VBAC at home after two C sections in the hospital, so it was entirely different. Birth Experience I had a lot of birth trauma to work through. I had two losses I was dealing with at that time, emotionally and mentally. And I really wanted another girl. I had a girl, boy, boy, and I really wanted another girl. And we didn’t know. We waited till she was born, and after she was born, that child was doted on by all the other five members of our family. So until she was about five, pretty much had to do nothing for herself. So that’s how she became a drama queen. It’s all on us. It’s all our fault. And I take full responsibility for that. But I’m wondering if we did a better job of like, we do premarital counseling, why aren’t we doing pre birth counseling with the whole family? And how do you want to transition and how do you want to work this out and how do the kids need to still have time with you and you still have time with each other? Why isn’t that a normal part of mental health?

00:23:59 – Johnny Sanders
It’s a great question. It really is. And that’s something as you’re kind of walking through that. I’m just thinking in my own little family period here, that when my son was born, my daughter was almost two. So we tried to explain some stuff to her, but she just didn’t really understand. She wasn’t two yet. So this go around. Now, my son, he just turned two. So same type of thing. We’ve explained a little bit. He knows what babies are, but he’s just going to have to learn. That’s just going to be confusing. But my daughter, yeah, go for that.

00:24:41 – Robin Atkins
So what we did with each child that was born previously, when the next one was coming, we got a little kid’s tool belt, like a little two year old tool belt, and embroidered their name on it and stuffed it with diapers and wipes and passes and they were mommy’s helper. And then they felt super included and super needed and seen and loved and they knew how to interact, they knew what to do. There wasn’t fear around. Like, what do I need to do? Like, Mom’s changing the bit, I just need to hand her a diaper. And then we also had baby give the other kids a gift, something very small. You don’t have to spend dollar tree. Most kids are fine with that. And we had each of the kids pick out something for the baby, and that way they felt already connected in some way. And so that was just a really nice transition for our real little ones when the next little one was coming around, that they already had a place and a role with that child, in a relationship with that child.

00:25:41 – Johnny Sanders
I really like that we did with my daughter, and we’re doing this with so we’re having another son with this new son that’s about to be born. We have little gifts like little stuffed animals or whatever to try to make them feel a part of that. But I love that little tool belt there of really prepping them and having them be a part of that, because I can see that with my two year old. He’s just a sweet hugging little dude, and he’s used to being the baby, and he’s not he’s not going to get that same type of alone time with with the both of us and everything. So I definitely think him being involved in that process. That is a wonderful idea because my three year old, almost four year old, she’s all into it. She looks at the ultrasound pictures, she’s like, let’s get this baby. And she’s mother hen already. But two year old just doesn’t quite understand that. So I think that’s a great idea to get him involved that way.

00:26:53 – Robin Atkins
Yeah. One other thing we do, and this is kind of giving your listeners an example of what therapy looks like. When I work with my clients pre birth, we talk birth plans, multiple different birth plans. We do the ideal, which isn’t going to happen, but along those lines. And then we need to compromise. Some things aren’t going to go your way. And then we do the emergency worst case scenario birth plans. But then we do postpartum planning as well. The fourth trimester, three months after. And one of the things we talk about is having stations around the house for mom and baby, like snacks for mom, all the pumping stuff for mom, and a couple of different stations throughout the house. And then also getting like a rolling cart for the kids to have activities at each place so mom doesn’t have to get up every 5 seconds to get something for the other kiddos. They’ve got stations of things they like to do, crafts or books or stuffed animals or whatever. And then we do the same with snacks. We have a snack cabinet that the kids are allowed to go into anytime they want. It’s pretty healthy. And then we have a pull out drawer in our refrigerator. They don’t have to ask, they can go get. And that all made my last postpartum much easier than my other ones because we had pre planned for what is this going to look like when I’m home and my hubby’s at work and I’ve got four kids?

00:28:09 – Johnny Sanders
Yeah, I think really what we’re getting at here is just that prep work. And it makes sense. We do it in everything else in our life. When we paint I painted the bathroom not too long ago, you get all the tape out and make sure that all your materials are all set up, good to go. That prep work makes the actual painting way easier if you do that correctly. So we instinctually do these things all the time. But you’re right, it tends to be in birth. Okay, go figure it out. And that’s a new human being. We should do a little bit more prep work.

00:28:51 – Robin Atkins
Yeah, we’ll have meal, trains and registries, which are fantastic and lovely and don’t stop doing those. In fact, do them for months after you think the family needs them. But it’s not just the things, it’s the relationship that we need to prep for. And how in the house are we going to maintain relationship? And something new we started this year with our kids was since I’m now working full time and my husband. Working full time. And we’re homeschooling people going everywhere all the time. We each take 4 hours once a month with each child alone. So one weekend day every Saturday or Sunday, I’ll take one kid for 4 hours and then he’ll take one kid for 4 hours. And so each kid gets a dedicated 4 hours a month, which seems ridiculously small when I think about how many hours are in a month. But the reality is that’s where we’re at, that’s where we’ve got right now. Hopefully we’ll extend it more, but they are so much more at peace about, I’m going to get mom’s ear or dad’s ear dedicated to me and I know it’s coming on that day and I can wait till that day or I can tell her ahead of time, I need to talk about these things. They can talk to us any day, but that’s a guaranteed, I’m taking you out of the house with me without the other kids, and you’ve got me all to yourself. And that has really helped as well. Maintain those relationships and help them feel like they aren’t lost in the mix.

00:30:11 – Johnny Sanders
Yeah, because naturally if you don’t go out of your way, especially in a situation like our family, we’re about to have this baby and that baby is going to cry, need to be changed. Takes precedent over the here and now, takes precedent over when my two year old’s hungry or when he’s thirsty. And that’s obviously going to cause problems if we don’t come up with ways to be able to tend to everybody’s needs and acclimate that. Yeah, now there’s this crying little baby in here, but that’s your brother and we love this brother.

00:30:47 – Robin Atkins
You just triggered something else I wanted to talk about again for me when you were talking about the crying baby. One difference between men and women, and it’s what research suggests, and I’m not a researcher in this area, but this is what I’ve read repeatedly in research is in the pituitary gland, women have a kind of alert signal that men don’t have to their own babies cry, not to necessarily any baby’s cry, but their own. That it’s like a pain response. It sends out the hormones that cause a pain response. And I’m pretty sure God created that way for the survival of the species because middle of the night I’m exhausted, but man, I hear my baby cry and I’m hurting and I’m going to get up and go. But it’s just one interesting way of like when we’re prepping for having a child, no matter where anybody’s at politically or philosophically, whether they’re liberal, feminist or conservative or libertarian or whatever they might be, you can’t get around biology. And so like mother’s biology is tuned to the first three months being the survival of the child. And that’s one thing our society also isn’t doing well is how do we support the three months after. And I’m not a fan of government forcing business to do anything. I have a small business and I understand lots of small businesses can’t afford to give somebody three months paid leave. I have lots of out of the box ideas of how we can make that happen without hurting anyone. But we just don’t do that really well of recognizing the mom’s. Biology is built for the survival of the child and also that child has only ever known the mom as an environment. And so mom’s heartbeat, mom’s smell, mom’s sound, that’s the child’s norm dad’s voice too. But mom’s body is baby’s environment. And when you think about things like adoption or when kids get removed by Department of Children’s Services as newborns, there’s this can be this trauma or this primal wound that comes from that. And so we just don’t really do a good job as society looking at women’s biology and what all it’s designed for. We look at how sex happens and we look at how pregnancy, like how baby develops in utero and we look at birth, but we don’t really talk about then after what a woman’s biology is made for.

00:33:24 – Johnny Sanders
Anecdotally. And with my children, 1000% that is the case, I could be sleeping and at times it will annoy my wife afterwards. And granted I tell like, if you need me, just waking me up, but baby stirs a little bit and she’s bam, she’s there and I hear nothing, nothing at all. And I just go on about my day and maybe the baby’s crying a little bit. I’m like, Polly hungry, no big deal. But my wife, yeah, she’s right there. And like you said, that’s that biology. And you mentioned this, what a wonderful thing that women’s bodies are designed that way that keeps our babies safe. That’s fantastic. And yeah, as a society we’ve got the lines blurred so much and this goes into some more of the transgender type of talk too, that men and women are basically just the same thing. So biology doesn’t really matter, it’s just kind of what you identify as or whatever. So those signals, yeah, they’re not that important. That’s just not true. That is absolutely a big deal. And I’ll tell you, my body can’t do half the things that my wife’s body can do and that is awesome. We should be celebrating that fact, not downgrading it.

00:34:54 – Robin Atkins
Well, yeah, my husband and I have a really wonderful appreciation for the differences in our bodies. We’re not just like meat sacks where you can just swap parts. It doesn’t really work like that. Even if we can do surgeries to try to appear as the other gender, the internal biology isn’t going to work. And this is whenever I hear these stories about like, oh, we’re going to end up we have had successful uterine transplants from woman to woman and we’ve had a couple of babies born that way, but there’s no way it would work from a woman to a male body. Because it’s not just the uterus, it’s all the other connections between how the immune system is this delicate, beautiful dance during pregnancy that you cannot duplicate just by putting a uterus in your body. And then the pituitary gland and all the hormone releases is this cascade throughout pregnancy and throughout birth. And you can’t duplicate that just by putting a uterus in your body. So we appreciate each other’s natural biological gifts in such a beautiful way that we don’t have resentment around that. So he’s naturally taller. I’m pretty short anyway, but he’s taller and naturally stronger and naturally can eat 1000 more calories than me a day and not gain weight, which is really irritating. I won’t lie. That one’s irritating. But that’s his natural, and I love him for all the things he can do that I can’t do. And then he looks at our kids and was like, I could never have cooked these little ones and then nursed them for three or four years each. And he’s not relational like I am. And it is a stereotype, but it’s also true biologically in our brains. Women are more relational and nurturing, and men are more hunter gather adventurer. And so he’s all about the adventure part of like, he’s got that down. He is like Disney dad with all of the adventure and fun things that he does with the kids. But when they’re crying, it’s mom that they go to first, not that they never go to him. My youngest today wanted to sit next to Daddy, not Mommy, which is totally fine. But yeah, it’s just a natural, built in part of our biology. And it’s beautiful, like you said.

00:37:02 – Johnny Sanders
Yeah, well, and that kind of leads me into this other discussion point. That really what drew me to you on Twitter in the first place. I don’t remember what I first saw from you, but the constant thing. And you have all sorts of people that say some pretty nasty things to you on Twitter, but one of the things that you talk often about is that women’s biology is not bad. Like, women’s body being able to have a baby. That is not a bad thing. That’s a beautiful thing. That’s the way that we’re created. So speak a little bit more into that of that biology, particularly as it relates into the abortion debate and everything of why a woman’s body being functioned that way. Why is that so important in that discussion?

00:37:57 – Robin Atkins
Man, we would need like 20 hours for me to go all the way through that. But I will give my best, like, two, three minute snippet of that. Yeah, I do get lots of nasty feedback because I talk about really hot button issues and I don’t love confrontation. And that like, I can’t wait to fight, but I don’t dislike confrontation, so I don’t get worked up by and I tend to ignore the people that aren’t there for genuine conversation anyway. So I had an abortion in my twenty s and it took 19 years for me to even acknowledge that’s what had happened. I had done all kinds of denial and cognitive dissonance and all kinds of things to cover that up. And my story is a little bit different in that I didn’t go in choosing an abortion, I went in for another reason and was sold an abortion with a lot of coherent and deceptive wording so that I didn’t even really kind of know what was about to happen to me. There was definitely no informed consent given and that’s not uncommon, unfortunately, that there isn’t informed consent, but that’s a whole nother conversation. But when I first started actually dealing with what had happened to me, I first started noticing after the day after my oldest living daughter was born, I was weeping out of fear that I wasn’t safe for her and I couldn’t quite figure out why I didn’t feel safe with her. Like I would have killed dragons for her. I couldn’t figure out why I didn’t. And then it took a while to figure out, oh, instinctively my very genetics and biology has had a trauma of being forced to end a very natural biological process in an unnatural way and now my body doesn’t feel safe to me. And then after we had our miscarriage I felt like, man, my body is just and some women can’t ever successfully carry a pregnancy after abortion because their body is damaged in such a way that they can’t. And so without looking at anything religion, without even necessarily looking at I guess I do lean quite a bit on science regarding biology but when I think of philosophically and I have a philosophy degree, but when I think about it philosophically when we offer abortion as the answer to a cris situation. What we’re saying is your body is the problem and your offspring is the problem. So we need to deconstruct your biology and we need to take away your offspring and then your life will be better. But the reality number one, that’s extremely misogynistic and pretty ageist against children as well and discriminatory all around, but two, it doesn’t actually solve most of the reasons women are in crisis. So dismantling her biology isn’t going to make an abusive partner stop abusing her. Still going to do that. You haven’t changed him at all. Getting rid of the child isn’t going to suddenly bring a windfall of cash. Poverty is still going to be poverty. So we’re not solving any of the actual issues that abortion has been touted as the answer for. Instead we just continually blame women’s, biology and our offspring for these crises. And what I see happening is now when we try to get any kind of protections for postpartum like maternity or paternity and again, I’m not saying government driven, I’m saying society and community driven, where let’s give leave or let’s do PTO swaps or donating time from coworkers or whatever. Let’s figure this out, where we can do floating shifts and stuff like that to make it possible. We were so quick to be like, yeah, but you could just like, if you can’t afford a baby, just have an abortion. And again, your body’s the problem, not society. Society. We need workers, we need producers, not a producers of children, producers of goods and services. And so, yeah, you just need to get rid of that part of your biology, because that’s a problem. And it’s interesting, and I’m not a super feminist, but we don’t do that to male biology. We don’t say, you know what, your sperm is a problem. Now. Men do get vasectomies. And if you have learned consent, you want to do that all for that. You do you. But we don’t give that as like a, well, really, it’s your sperm that’s the issue. And so we need to do away with that. And so when I think about we’re just now in our society, starting to include breastfeeding rooms in public places and changing tables in all the restrooms, not just women’s restrooms, but for dads, too, we’re just starting to creep into acknowledgment that women’s biology and children exist outside of commercialism.

00:43:12 – Johnny Sanders
Yeah, that’s such an important discussion that our bodies and I’ll take this into the faith side, that I believe our bodies were designed by God for a specific reason, by a specific creator. It’s just mockery to his design of kind of how we treat each other’s bodies. And that’s, again, as part of what really drew me to a lot of your posts, is just that openness goodness to just flat out say, yeah, I’ve had an abortion on Twitter. That’s just asking for all sorts of feedback from different people. And I love that, you know, yourself and, you know, hey, I’m able to take this. And the people that, yeah, I’m a big fan of a heavy block button or mute button. If people are just being hateful, like, who cares? Just go ahead and do that. But the people that are legitimately want to have a conversation. Who knows? Who knows the type of impact that you could have there? And really driving that discussion back into our bodies are not the problem. The way that they’re designed that is not the issue. They are designed well. And I’ll go too again on especially that topic on women’s biology. Yeah, there’s some stuff with men, but even when we get into transgender stuff, kind of back into that discussion, my spaces by and large aren’t impacted that much. There are some cases here and there, but women’s spaces are absolutely impacted massively. And it’s just such a shame that this is being covered in more of a feminist type of lingo and more of a left leaning type of lingo, that this is progress. No, it’s not.

00:45:24 – Robin Atkins
No, that whole topic. So I have so much love in my heart for people who truly have gender dysphoria, it is painful. Painful. And what they need, though, is not the politicization of it and not the you know what. We can cure a mental health issue with surgery. No, we can’t. We’ve never been able to cure mental health issues with surgery. Every time we’ve tried in the history of psychology, it’s gone drastically wrong. So we have to treat it with relationship. That’s the only way we treat mental health issues. And so I feel for people who are transgender and that this is harming them. And then I feel for women who like myself, I’ve been like I said, I have sexual assault history where if no offense to any man at all, but if I’m in a bathroom or locker room or anywhere where I’m expecting to be able to be vulnerable physically, and a man shows up, I’m instantly on high alert. And that’s uncomfortable for both of us. What’s really shocking to me about that whole movement, I guess it’s not shocking anymore. What was shocking to me in the beginning was when we were saying, like, okay, let’s have individual spaces for those who are transgender. Let’s just have a bathroom for them to use, and no, we want yours. That’s where it felt like, okay, this really isn’t about what those who have gender dysphoria need to feel accepted and supported by culture. This is about wanting to remove and break down the differences between male and female. And, like, transhumanism is what it’s really ultimately about. And honestly, when I look back at the history of abortion, it’s about transhumanism as well. And so it’s all interconnected. I’ve done a lot of Twitter posts about, like, can you see the connections between all of these things and all these things in human trafficking and all of these things and birth control? And I’m not opposed to birth control as far as it being available with informed consent, I’m fine with that. But I do think inherently, birth control says your body’s a problem, your biology is a problem. You need to stop your healthy biology. So even that has subtle psychological repercussions or repercussions of being so flippantly. Like, the FDA just approved the first over the counter birth control this week. And I’m like, and now so it’s just very flippant. Like, yep, your biology is a problem. That’s what we need to stop is your healthy biology. And yeah, it’s all interconnected in all of it with the idea that we can escape our biology, we can transcend our biology. And I’m like, well, we don’t even fully understand our biology. So I’m not sure how you think that’s going to be successful, number one, but number two, we’re going to hurt a whole lot of people along the way attempting to do this. And I started talking about abortion on Twitter, not even from a pro life or pro choice perspective, but just because I know because I work in this line of work, that I’m not the only one that had trauma related to abortion. And so it was for the other women who were like, I’ve never ever seen another woman openly say in public, I had an abortion. And it was terrible and I’m deeply wounded and I had to face the trauma of losing my child, but also the trauma of I did that. And so that’s why I originally started talking about it. It wasn’t even to try to convince people one way or another. It was to give this woman support. And you said, who knows what could happen? I tell you what has happened. And I didn’t do it for this reason, but it’s been so beautiful. I’ve had lots of women in my private messages, my DMs, either asking for resources for help, or I’m considering an abortion and I want to talk to and ultimately choosing not to have one. And I get to walk with them through that. And even if they chose one, I would walk with them through that too. My care for them isn’t based on their choice. It’s based on them as a human being. And I want them to see themselves that way, and I want them to see their child that way, ultimately. And so I’m with them either way. But I’ve watched women choose not to have abortions and watch them just seconds after their child’s born. They’re messaging me, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I even thought of it. And then we’re dealing with that trauma if I thought of it, but just the joy that instant, and not everybody has that instant response. And that’s a whole nother level of birth trauma we could talk about at some point of people that don’t feel instantly bonded because that is a thing that happens. But so far they have. And so it’s really been almost like a ministry field for me that I didn’t think Twitter would ever be a ministry field for me, but it really is. And so I just try to be faithful when God says, I need you to show up here and I need you to be vulnerable and I need you to say all the things that you either are scared to say or don’t want to say or people don’t want to hear. I need you to say those things and trust me that I’m going to bring the people to you that need you, and I’m going to give you that mute button for the people that you don’t need to hear, who still need to hear your message. Which is why I don’t tend to block. I tend to just mute because then they still have to see me, but I don’t have to hear them. And so you can get my message all day long, that’s fine. And I just try to be faithful to that. And it’s borne some really beautiful offline relationships both with wounded women, wounded men from abortion, but also very liberal women who are really wrestling with this, losing their spaces. And as we start talking about that, they’re starting to see the connection with that in abortion and not maybe that they’re deciding, I’m not going to be pro choice anymore, but I really need to rethink the fact that they’re selling that as a liberation for me. Why are they telling me my body needs I need to be liberated from my body? That doesn’t seem very pro woman to me. And so I’ve just had such beautiful connections with people and they may never my goal isn’t to make somebody pro life, it’s just to have the real, honest conversations and the genuine love from human to human that wherever you land, we’re worth the conversation and we’re worth the respect while we have it. So it’s just been beautiful overall.

00:51:55 – Johnny Sanders
Absolutely. You mentioned the keyword there is vulnerable. And I know not everyone listening to this is going to go and tweet different things about abortion or reproduction or whatever it may be, that’s fine. But kind of the whole purpose of this podcast is for me to talk with people and to challenge listeners to do something, to be active and not just be angry, be apathetic. And at some level, if you’re going to engage, you have to be vulnerable. It doesn’t have to be online, but to make an impact, you have to be vulnerable. You have to accept some people aren’t going to like this and that’s okay. But there is another side of that. There is this beautiful side. None of those interactions would have happened had you not said anything.

00:52:47 – Robin Atkins
Right. And I don’t think being vulnerable online is a good idea if you haven’t worked through your own trauma. If you have trauma, you’re going to get severely wounded. People will say the most hurtful things. And it’s not like I’m a robot. When I do see those things, they do hurt, but I just am able to now quickly turn it into a quick prayer for them and move on. But if you’re not worked through your trauma, that could really set you into a bad place. So I wouldn’t encourage that. But what I do a lot of work with my patients is when I do, we conflict resolution. The fastest way to end a fight is vulnerability. And it can be something as simple as I’m really scared or I’m really uncomfortable having this conversation and so I need to just slow down and I need us to bring the level down a bit and I want to hear you and I want to understand you. So vulnerability, understanding. I really want to understand you. Even if I disagree with you. That’s okay. I just want to understand you correctly.

00:53:49 – Johnny Sanders
Yeah, that’s a great point. And sometimes that starting point is being vulnerable to help myself and just be able to get on that road. Yeah, our paths aren’t all going to be the same. They’ll be different. Well, Robin, I think that we could probably talk another three more hours about this. Really, really enjoyed it. I think this is such an important piece, and hopefully some of the listeners will kind of understand that this is a big gap here and maybe get treatment for themselves or kind of advocate for treatment elsewhere. For people that are listening, how can they be in contact with you after the show?

00:54:27 – Robin Atkins
That’s a really good question. So if you want to follow all my shenanigans on Twitter, my handle is at Truth agape. And then if you want to kind of see what my work is, I have a website now when I was thinking of my business name. I love my business name, but does not make for a great website or email name. So I can spell it if needed, but it’s WW dot caris@veritasllc.com. And so how you spell that is C-H-A-R-I-S which is Keras at E T Veritas Veritas llc.com. It means grace and truth in Greek and Latin. And those are the two things I endeavor to bring to every session, is Grace and Truth. So that’s why I picked that name, and I do love it, but it doesn’t make for a great website or email. And then if they want to email me, they can my email is on the website, or they can just R atkins@carousetveritasllc.com, and they can email can’t I will say this right now, I can’t treat anyone outside my state. I am only licensed state of Indiana, so I can’t treat anybody outside my state, and I have a six month waiting list. However, I am more than happy to help someone find someone in their area, or at least part of what I’ve done on Twitter is, here’s what you should look for in a therapist. And here’s some red flags to avoid. Because right now there’s so much and you know this there’s so much social justice in therapy now that it’s not really about therapy as much as it’s about politics for some people. And so I just talk about, here’s some red flags to avoid to not end up in a session where you have an activist instead of a therapist sitting across from you.

00:56:07 – Johnny Sanders
And I’ll speak on behalf of Robin. I’ve done this in my own private practice, which, for those of you that don’t know, my private practice, is Truth and Grace Counseling. So we have a lot of similarities there in the name. But I love when somebody’s from Pennsylvania or I had somebody in Canada, areas that I’m not licensed in, to be able to point them in the right direction, I love. Yes, don’t don’t hesitate to reach out to her, especially when it comes to reproductive issues like that. She can help point you in the.

00:56:40 – Robin Atkins
Right direction and gender related issues, because I’m part of a couple of organizations, networks across the world where I can quickly throw out to somebody treating the state and get answers.

00:56:51 – Johnny Sanders
Perfect. Great. Well, I’ll include all of that down in the show notes so you guys can be in contact with her. And, Robin, thanks again so much for coming on today.

00:57:01 – Robin Atkins
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

00:57:03 – Johnny Sanders
Absolutely. And thank you to everybody that tuned in today. And we will catch you on the next episode.