Standing Firm with Truth and Love: A Guide for Gender Challenges

Show Notes

Hey friends! I recently had the pleasure of chatting again with therapist Pamela Garfield-Jaeger about her incredible new book offering practical tips for families navigating gender distress. Pamela shares openly from her experience working with young people struggling with gender identity issues. I was shocked to hear that in one program, half the girls were identifying as trans! 😮 This opened Pamela’s eyes to how mainstream transgender affirmation has become, often targeting vulnerable youth. In our conversation, Pamela compassionately challenges common myths – affirmation does NOT prevent suicide, and complications like chronic pain, cancer risks, and lost fertility are very real. Her book debunks lies with clinical facts and ethical arguments. It equips us to push back against intimidating activists seeking to normalize experimental medicine for children. I love that it’s so practical – filled with talking points to halt confusing gender ideology in its tracks. This will help you gain courage to kindly but firmly just say “no” to participating. As Pamela wisely says, being “too nice” has let radical activism infiltrate. We need to stand by truth – it’s better for individuals AND society. Let me know your biggest takeaways in the comments! And click the link below to get your copy of this vital resource. Our kids are worth fighting for.

Parenting Gender Confused Children Support Group:

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00:00:00 – Introduction and Podcast Consulting Services

00:00:47 – Reintroduction of Guest and Book Topic

00:03:07 – Pamela’s Interest in Gender Issues

00:05:30 – Impact on Vulnerable Populations

00:11:02 – Practical Steps for Conservative Families

00:16:29 – Importance of Being Present for Your Kids

00:18:19 – Encouraging Physical Activity for Kids

00:20:55 – Addressing Gender Identity Issues

00:23:57 – Importance of Speaking Truth

00:28:42 – Debunking Myths and Talking Points

00:31:59 – The Importance of Truth in Speaking Up

00:32:56 – Institutional Capture and Global Impact

00:33:48 – Practical Solutions Over Theory

00:34:25 – Accessing the Book and Author’s Social Media

00:35:14 – Conclusion and Recommendation

00:00:00 – Johnny Sanders
Do you enjoy listening to podcasts and think, man, I would like to make my own podcast. This is where I found myself last year, and I have learned a lot about what to do and a lot about what not to do. I’m offering consulting services to help you launch your podcast, especially if you’re looking to make a more christian or conservative based podcast. Find out more I have a link down in the description below if you would like help on getting your podcast started.

00:00:47 – Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of faithfully engaged. Those of you that have been longtime listeners back when this was the truth and grace Counseling podcast, you are going to recognize this guest. Have Pamela Garfield Yeager on today. And last time we talked about all sorts of fun topics related to just therapy and therapists kind of going off the deep end on all sorts of issues. And we have an extremely important topic and more so about the book that is about to be released. And this book is a practical response to gender distress tips and tools for families. So, Pamela, it’s great to have you back on. Why don’t you tell the guests just a little bit more about yourself?

00:01:30 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
So yes, I’m known as the truthful therapist online because I’m a therapist that tells the truth, which I didn’t realize was an anomaly. I recognized that, yes, our profession is going off the rails. So I decided to go online and talk about it. The reason it was easier for me to be more outspoken is because I do have some chronic pain and I can’t work full time. And I was also told I couldn’t work because I lived in California and I chose not to get a certain thing. So I don’t know if we’re on YouTube. So I’m censoring a little bit.

00:02:13 – Johnny Sanders
You guys know what the mandates there.

00:02:18 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
And because I had gone through some personal health issues and I had just gotten a lot better from it, I didn’t trust doing something that might send me to get worse. So I decided I wasn’t going to do that, and it became forced and mandated. So I decided, well, if you’re going to do that, then I’m going to start talking about how ludicrous our profession is publicly. And so that’s how the truthful therapist was born. And yeah, since then, I’ve gotten really involved in helping families, kids, parents be more empowered to understand that our mental health system isn’t up to snuff. And I’ve gotten really involved in the gender discussion, which is what my book is about.

00:03:07 – Johnny Sanders
Let’s start there on the gender discussion. Everybody listening to this is well aware that there’s all this gender nonsense out there of forcing kids to transition and all that bad stuff. But for you personally, why study so much about these gender related issues? What about this really interested you to learn more about?

00:03:36 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Well, the first thing is, when I was at that job, it was 2021. This is in California. So people might just dismiss, this is only California. It’s not just in California. And it’s gotten much worse since then. But when I was working in that program, half the girls were identifying as trans, half. And this was a program where it was short term, so they were rotating. So there was always a third total of the patients that were identifying as trans. And I just thought that was wild. And what I thought was wild about it was not just that that was happening with the kids, but that my colleagues, my coworkers were going along with it. They were encouraging it. Part of the ritual of starting group therapy was to introduce yourself with the pronouns. So they said to have the kids do the pronouns say their age. And then some icebreaker, like, what’s your favorite ICE cream? And that’s how I was trained. I didn’t do it. I just ignored it. But I was the only therapist that didn’t do that piece. So that was really what really opened my eyes up to how widespread this is. Especially it was targeting vulnerable kids, kids who had underlying mental health issues. So I was in a program with kids who had been hospitalized, usually, or having suicidal ideations or having some kind of other mental health issues. And these were the kids that were saying they were trans. So it was really obvious to me that they were using this identity to cope, to get attention, to feel more powerful. And I just couldn’t understand how there was this huge blind spot among my colleagues. So that’s what got me into it. But, yeah, if you want to go there, it’s really dark. This is about harming kids. This is about sterilizing vulnerable kids. You could really look at it as eugenics. The population that is heavily impacted are kids and adults who have autism. So usually they have more trouble socially, and they have trouble fitting in. They’re more online, so they’re more susceptible to getting sucked into this ideology. They have more rigid thinking. So it’s harder to kind of talk to them from a different point of view and have them hear you out, because they get kind of locked into a certain way of thinking. So I feel like the trans people know this, so they really target the autistic young people, they have a trans flag with an autistic symbol on it. They sell merchandise for autistic people with pride things all over it with rainbows and the blue and pink symbols on them. So it’s a marketing scam. And then, of course, they’re profiting off of vulnerable people. This is a big market. We’re making kids lifelong patients. We’re creating disabilities in kids, bone density issues, joint problems, pain, cancer, blood clots. I could go on and on, and I think it hit me personally, too, because I had just come off a really long disability where I was knocked out of my job because of physical issues. And then I was learning that these hormones and these puberty blockers were creating disabilities and chronic pain for young people. That was completely unnecessary. So I think that really hit a nerve for me. Literally a nerve, because I have nerve pain. And so it really got to me that this was something that my profession was endorsing to create disability, confusion, dividing of families, and really just for the power and profits of people that don’t have good intentions.

00:07:28 – Johnny Sanders
Obviously, many things that, like you just said, very dark, that are awful. And you and I, it hits differently than most of the audience listening, because we’re in this field, so we feel some more of that personal obligation as well to speak out. And you’ve been in a very unique position to do even more so, which is fantastic. However, for those that are listening, they may hear you and say, yeah, that’s bad, and I’m all about speaking out against that. But one, again, you’re a therapist. I’m not. So it doesn’t really pertain to me. And two, like you just said, you’re in California. I’m in Oklahoma or Texas or Georgia or wherever. That stuff doesn’t happen here. What’s your response and kind of warning to that with the already conservative families that maybe just brush this off?

00:08:30 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Yeah, this is impacting everyone. Well, for one, California, and I believe Washington, I’m not sure what other states. They’re trans sanctuary states. So they’re states that a kid from another red state could actually possibly steal your credit card and go cross state lines and go get trans treatment. I’m calling it treatment, but I don’t believe it’s treatment. Trans hormone surgeries just get affirmed and be further groomed in these other states. So just that alone affects the entire country. I’m not sure all the states that do it. I know California is a trans sanctuary state. The bill is SB 107. That passed last January, I believe. So that’s number one so your kid can just go across state lines if you have a fight, if there’s issues within your family. There are plenty of kids in red states that are in just, their families are in some kind of crisis. So it’s easy for them to fall into the hands of people that will convince them that this is going to solve their problems. So I know your whole audience cares about kids who are vulnerable, foster kids, that maybe a parent just died in the family. So the family is just in crisis. They’re not all bad and evil. I see that a lot with conservative followers. They’ll tell me, well, that’s just bad parenting. And then they say, but I’m a good parent, so I don’t have to worry about it. This isn’t only just about bad parenting. Yes, usually there is some kind of issue and problem in the home, but that’s what happens, that the activists are swooping in and taking advantage of good families that are having a hard time for one reason or another. So this is affecting all of us. And then, yeah, don’t underestimate movies. It’s on Netflix. It’s on things you probably don’t even realize that very popular kids show cocoa Melon now is promoting this ideology. So your kid might be watching something that maybe your school is super conservative and wouldn’t do it, and your network. But we’re inundated everywhere. It’s all over the media, it’s in the commercials. All the different brands are promoting it. And maybe as an adult, you’d be like, well, that’s hogwash. But your kid doesn’t know differently and they might get influenced by that and then their peers. So you got to watch for their peer groups. It can happen. It can happen to anyone.

00:11:02 – Johnny Sanders
Some really good warnings there. One, just the Internet in general. Yeah, there’s a lot of great things about it. I talk about this often with clients and on the show that, hey, right now with you and I talking to each other right now, we couldn’t do that without the Internet. That’s great. There’s some really cool communication aspects of that. You can connect with family members across the world and share pictures. There’s cool things, but evil doesn’t care. If there’s a neat invention out there, it’s going to sneak in into those ways as well. So, yes, your kids will be inundated. I don’t care if you’re home schooled and you’re the best little christian family that goes to church every week or whatever, your kids will be exposed. And I think that needs to be just sunk into the conservative audience. That’s not, they might be, they will be in some way, shape or form. So how are we going to handle that? How are we going to help them prepare for that instead of just putting the wool over our eyes and acting like it’ll never happen? I think that’s something conservatives specifically really struggle with because like you said, Pamela, there’s the bad parenting and aspects like that, which is true. That does happen. But I’ve had personal contact with people, families that are completely blindsided, that are good parents that just didn’t know what their kid was looking at online. And the cocoa Melon thing, you said, that one just hits home because my kids have watched Cocoa Melon and we’ve never really liked it. But the one thing that we liked is, well, one of the few things that we have as far as our kids watching is is there a mom and a dad and are they boys and girls? That’s about it as far as our standards, which is becoming increasingly harder for that to be the case for shows for our kids to watch. And that’s another one that Coca Melon did great with for the longest time. And of course, they just can’t help themselves like so many other things. So I think you lay out a good case for conservatives to really be aware here. So let’s take that to this next step. And I know you got a whole book that you’ve written about all sorts of topics, but specifically for the conservatives that are assuming they’ve got good family values and all of that, what practical steps can they take to kind of be aware and try to help prevent this from happening to their kids or maybe family members that they know?

00:13:53 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Yeah, I mean, the number one thing I talk about in my book, I’m just going to make the assumption if you’ve got the good family values, a lot of this is already built in, but is to be more present or to be present with your kids? Because a lot of us do is they say we’re your family now. So if the kid for some reason or another is feeling estranged in their family, perhaps, and it could just be a situation like the sibling has special needs, which might take up a lot of your time and attention and you’re only human. And so then the other sibling who’s a pretty good kid and doesn’t need as much attention later on might be feeling that. Then this is a common thing. Then later when they’re a teenager start to come out as trans. That’s a common story. So just kind of being mindful of when you’re distracted and giving that attention to kids just being present. The biggest thing, of course, and I think your audience already knows this is the device, is the social media monitor, that stuff. Don’t leave them alone with it. Probably best to not even have smartphones. That’s a whole other conversation about when to let them even touch a smartphone. There’s a website called Wait till the eigth, which they say they recommend to wait till at least the kid is in eigth grade. That’s their recommendation. Probably. The later the better. So devices are huge, but yeah, it’s really about, like I said earlier, the trans people take some kind of vulnerability and then they prey on it. So if your kid has special needs themselves, or has a sibling with special needs, or if somebody has an illness in the family, or you’ve had to move suddenly for some unforeseen reason, and it’s hard on the family, these are the moments that the trans people kind of swoop in and get in. So those are the things to look out for.

00:15:53 – Johnny Sanders
Like you mentioned, I think most people know being present in your kids lives is important, but it’s a good reminder for even well intentioned good parents to just go that extra mile. I know I catch myself on occasion, especially if I’ve had a long, busy day. I’ve seen a lot of clients or something that I come in and after dinner or something, like I’m scrolling my phone or something like that. And does that make me the worst dad in the world? No, it doesn’t. But it’s an extra reminder of, okay, I know I’m tired, but my son that wants me to throw him on the couch, like he really needs me right now. And just doing those little things like that, that extra reminder, it’s not operating out of fear that if I don’t rough house my son, then he’s going to turn trans or whatever. It’s not that level, but it’s prevention. Because if he knows dad cares about me, he’s present in my life, he’s not going to be as likely to go out and search for that validation by some random online or whatever it may be. So I think that is just a good extra reminder for those of you that are parents listening to just make that motivation go put your own phone down. We worry about our kids being on phones, which is true.

00:17:22 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Adults are on phones too much. Yeah, I’m guilty of that.

00:17:29 – Johnny Sanders
I think we’re all guilty of it. And we can have a whole conversation about smartphones and mental health and how that affects adults. They’re really good at just sucking you in. And again, we know that. Wait to eigth campaign. I like that in some ways, it kind of makes me feel dated even, because I remember when I was a kid, getting a cell phone at 16 was like, oh, my gosh, that’s the coolest thing in the whole wide world. And those were dumb phones. They just called and texted. And now the campaign to push it to eigth grade, and that’s like the standard. Things have changed. They definitely have. But, yeah, we need to focus on what our kids are intaking. But what are you intaking and are you being present in their lives? I think that’s such a really pertinent, important point there for even well intentioned good parents to remember.

00:18:32 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Yeah. And it’s really important to get your kid in real life, get them outside playing in their bodies. So they may not be an athlete per se, but just being outside playing with other friends where they’re not all sitting on their phones, that’s a thing now where kids, their hangout is where they’re all on their devices or they’re on their iPads, which is unfortunate. So, yeah, just getting your kids moving out and interacting with other people in real life really does make a big difference. Hopefully. I’m assuming if you’re in a more conservative area, they’re not interacting with people. That’s going to influence them in this way that we don’t want them to. That’s just more wholesome.

00:19:13 – Johnny Sanders
Well, and it goes back to just the importance of being engaged in your child’s life that say they do hang out with a friend and they’re playing soccer or whatever, and they introduce these ideas if you’re with your child, something I like to stress to the audience that, again, your kid will be inundated with it in some way, shape or form, but that’s not cause for alarm bells or things are just going horribly. If you catch that and you talk with them, then you’re going to be just fine. But we need to talk about it. We can’t just act like it’ll go away. I’ll give you a small example, which this was completely innocent from my daughter, who’s four, but she said something along the lines of, because we’re big on, like, your brothers are boys, you’re a girl, just those little things. And she said something along the lines of, but I’m a boy too, or something. I don’t remember what it was. And she’s four. She’s going to argue. I said, no, you’re a girl. No, I’m a boy. And instead of just going back and forth and arguing about it just kind of ended of, you can say that, but at the end, you’re always going to be a girl. And we love you. We love that you’re our only daughter and blah, blah, blah, all that fun stuff. And guess what? The next day, she doesn’t bring it up because she just wanted to argue because she’s a four year old and that’s what four year olds do. But you don’t just act like it’ll go away. You address it and you address it in a calm, easy manner. This stuff will take care of itself. If you’re present in their life.

00:20:55 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
And they need the truth, I don’t think your audience believes in this. So that is one reason that you guys will probably have less of it because unfortunately, more progressive parents would have said, oh, I need to let the child lead, which is a very ludicrous way of looking at a four year old. So the fact that you didn’t let her lead, that you told her the truth, and I think it actually helps her feel more grounded and feel less anxious that she had her dad tell her what is the truth, what is real? She was kind of testing, I think she was kind of testing the waters. Well, what am I, what’s going on? And you set her straight in a very calm, loving way, and that was exactly what she needed. The other thing in my book I talk about is the pronoun thing. So I know a lot of conservatives tend to be nice and polite and they don’t agree with it. They know it doesn’t make any sense, but they don’t want to make waves, so they go along with it anyway. They just do it. I’ll just say my pronouns. What’s the big deal? It’s actually a very big deal, especially when you’re dealing with children, because that is sending them on this path of being confused about what is real and what isn’t, who they are, who their friends are. So there are a lot of harms just in the pronouns. So I have a chapter about that. So that’s important because that will seep in. And the reason California and other states were a cautionary tale is because people are too damn nice.

00:22:25 – Johnny Sanders
We’re too nice.

00:22:26 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
So don’t be nice. I mean, be respectful, but stand by your values and don’t just go along with something just to be nice.

00:22:36 – Johnny Sanders
That’s a really good point there. That the pronoun usage that does become the minor topic. And, yeah, sometimes the part that, well, let’s compromise there. I’ll call you a boy or girl or whatever the he she thing, which this is neither here nor there, but the whole concept of it is just ridiculous because most of the time I haven’t ran into a whole lot of, in my professional career of where I’ve ran into that. But when it has, I think about it. I don’t really call people by their pronouns all that often, especially to their face. It’s usually when they’re gone. It’s a really silly concept to begin with, but yes, stating on truth, and that goes back to just your kind of moniker there of the truthful therapist. Why I think that’s so powerful, that truth matters. And I could tell my daughter in that last argument, yeah, whatever, you’re a boy and that probably wouldn’t have been the end of the world, but it wasn’t true. She’s a girl. The neighbor that wants your kids to call them that pronoun or whatever, truth matters. So I guess my question to you is for those that it’s not about their kids right now, but for their friends or for maybe at a dinner with a distant family member, that their kids are doing that, what is the way to, on the polite end, to not be aggressive with it, but still stand on truth? How can people do that, to speak truth in kind of that loving way when that pronoun issue comes up?

00:24:31 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Yeah, I mean, I would just simply respectfully say, I’m not participating in that. In your words, I’m not doing it. You could possibly just ignore it. But if they’re persistent about it, you’re going to have to explain that. No, this actually goes against my values because I believe in saying the truth. There’s actually a lot of harms in doing this. This is bad for society. I talk about this in my book. For example, if we say boys and girls can stay or be whoever they want, that tells especially little girls that their world isn’t safe for them if they don’t have safe spaces. I mean, this is actually more serious than we realize. We think it’s just not a big deal. But it is.

00:25:17 – Johnny Sanders
It is a lot of reasons.

00:25:19 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Yeah, I mean, this creates anxiety. This creates social anxiety. Of course, if it puts a lot of pressure on people, it divides people because there’s people who believe in this like it’s a religion and then people who don’t. But I think it’s important for people to stand up for what they believe in. Hopefully it won’t turn into a big battle or a big fight. But I think it’s important to not give in to something that’s important to you. Put it that way. Hopefully, if they’re your friend and they’re your family, they would respect that. And if they don’t, that’s a whole other conversation, really, than the pronouns.

00:26:02 – Johnny Sanders
Sure, and you’re absolutely right there that I like the simple approach. This is something I say to the clients I work with all the time. Most of the issues, not all, but most of the issues we deal with in life are relatively simple. Doesn’t mean it’s easy. It can be difficult to stand up and say no, or whatever it may be. But saying no is quite simple. You say no, there’s not a lot of moving pieces to it, and I think it’s important for you to think through again, just like I said, with your kids being inundated with it, you will face some pronoun usage issue somewhere, whether it’s online with the family member or I think what’s probably fairly common is at work, going to a work conference, and everyone states their pronouns or whatever, just standing up for that in that respectful way. Like, don’t be making a huge scene. But the good thing is when you step up, and this is another part that I say confidently, you will have people on your side. You’ll have people against you, sure. But people are very encouraged, and they will come up to you. Maybe they won’t say it in front of everybody, but say thank you. Thanks for standing up and sharing something. It’s contagious in that way.

00:27:40 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Yes. And you’re being a good role model for your kids. And I know that’s important to your audience. You’re showing your kids to stand up for things rather than giving your child that message to just be nice and compromise something that is harmful to you and others. That’s not the message we want to give to children.

00:28:01 – Johnny Sanders
Absolutely. For those that are listening to this episode, that, again, maybe they’re like, all right, I’m warming up a little bit more to this book of how this might be helpful to me, even though I’m not necessarily, I don’t have a trans kid or whatever the issue may be. Any other kind of tips or tricks or kind of words of recommendation of why this audience, my audience would benefit from reading your book?

00:28:34 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Well, this book gives the information on why this whole thing is so bad. And so I think a lot of people think, what’s the big deal? Just a couple of people being weird, right? But it’s really bad. It’s really harmful, and it really debunks a lot of the lies that are out there. Of course, that if you don’t affirm a person, if you don’t affirm a child that they will commit suicide, that’s a complete lie. And there’s no data to back that up. So I go into that in detail. And also it’s just wrong from an ethical, clinical standpoint. So I talk about that, too. So it gives you those talking points. It talks about how they talk about clone fish and intersex is the reason why we have multiple genders, and that’s just not true. It’s also completely silly. I mean, very simply put, human beings aren’t fish. But when people are put on the spot, they don’t think about it, and they get into the transactive is, they are really intimidating, and they say it in this really forceful way, and then you just kind of clam up. So if you have that in your wheelhouse, you know what to say. The intersex is a birth defect. So there are people that have traits of both male and female, so they’re very rare. But either way, that doesn’t prove that we have multiple sexes as the human species. Because if you think about it, if someone is blind, we’re still a seeing species. If someone is born without a leg, we’re still bipedal as a species. So these exceptions don’t say all of a sudden that means we just have infinite amount of genders. These are the ways you can argue back to someone that might to take over the conversation. People who have these talking points, they’re really good at taking over the conversation. Conservatives are really good at just kind of being quiet and withdrawing because they either don’t know what to say or it’s too much. So if you have that at your fingertips, then you can nip this stuff in the bud, because if you don’t nip it in the bud, this will fester in all of the states. California is a cautionary tale. It’s going to be everywhere. It is everywhere already. You mentioned Texas earlier. Texas. It’s very pervasive in Texas. They even have the bills to stop the surgeries, but there are still huge trans movements there. And apparently, I believe the governor is even funding some of it or taking funding from it. There’s a lot of shady stuff going on, and it’s not just the blue areas that it’s happening. So, yeah, I just know there are a lot of money and power behind this, and they’re after all of us.

00:31:20 – Johnny Sanders
Absolutely. And again, like we’ve talked about multiple times, truth matters. And when we have truth at our fingertips, especially about such a hot button issue like this that is guaranteed to affect you and your family in some way, shape or form, you cannot turn on your iPhone and get on Twitter X, whatever we’re calling it, and not see something, even if it’s something, talking against it. You’re going to be inundated with this in some way, shape or form. So are we thinking about it in a truthful way? Yes, it is absolutely everywhere. And we need to have truth on our side. And like you were mentioned, Pamela, that liberals have courage everywhere. They may be wrong, they may be dead wrong about things, but they have courage and they’re speaking up and they’re very persuasive. Now, logic isn’t on their side, so you have that going against them. But sometimes logic doesn’t matter as far as changing minds. So having the truth, then you can be persuasive about it. I actually have an episode coming up here pretty soon about the importance of using persuasive language that conservatives, quite frankly, aren’t very good at it. So get that truth and then have the passion behind it to debunk this stuff and not let it just run roughshot over you.

00:32:56 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
Yeah. And as you were talking, I was thinking about, too, just how our institutions are captured from the inside. Even all the institutions, all of the AMA and the psychological association and all the endocrine society, all of these institutions are all saying this is the right way. So that affects our entire country and in many ways, it affects the whole world. Happily, other countries, some are pushing back. But because all of our institutions are so captured by it, this is something we all need to speak up against.

00:33:34 – Johnny Sanders
Absolutely. And again, what I really like about this book is that it’s very practical. I mean, it’s, in the name itself, a practical guide. It’s not just theory. Theories can be good to look at and debunk and look at all that logic, but practical things that you can do. So I’m going to highly encourage everybody to definitely take a look at it, give it a read. And Pamela, those of you that are the audience that want to purchase the book and know more about it, how can they get this book in their hands?

00:34:14 – Pamela Garfield-Jaeger
So it’s going to be on Amazon the week of March twelveth, and you can find it through my website, You can Google the book name Google my name, and you should probably find it on My social media. I am at truth, I’m at truththerapist on Twitter or X, and then I am at the truthfultherapist on Instagram. And I have a substac, which is Pam therapist. I put the links up on all those social media pages also.00:34:52 – Johnny Sanders
Excellent. And I’ll include those social media links down there as well in the show notes. And Pamela, thanks again for being on the I celebrated this with Soad. She was my first two time guest on here, but you’re my second two time guest on yes. Great to have you on. Thank you. Thank you again to everybody that tuned in. Definitely check out this book. I guarantee it’s going to be a good usage of your time to read through and help prepare. And your family and I will catch you on the next episode.